I do think this is a black and white issue. I think most issues around online abuse are. Look at the Saarkesian thing that's going on elsewhere: I think making death-threats to a whole room full of people is wrong (can't pass judgement on the rest of gamergate, because I'm not in that community). I think if people said that was acceptable, for any reason, then yes, they're with the terrorists. And that's what I think about RH.
I also think that the SF&F community enabled and supported her for years. I saw hardly anyone presenting any effective opposition, and a great many singing her praises. I think it's true that few people knew the extent of it, I didn't, I didn't know she was attacking PoC as well as whites, and I'd have struggled to believe that, because it wouldn't make sense, but then nothing here makes sense.
However, if people had taken a stronger line of disapproval of abuse from the start, instead of cheering her and acting as supporters in her gang, think of all the people who would have been defended. By defending this person, even just in words, you defend all the other people, regardless who they are, by sending a clear message of what you do and don't approve of. The SF&F community utterly failed to do this, and I think there need to be changes in attitude in the community or we'll have this, or something worse, happen again.
All that said, the apology that RH made two years ago to Ms Sperring, makes me think somewhat better of RH. For me it's one star in a universe of darkness, but it's still one star that's there. She absolutely didn't have to do it, yet she did it. That means something. I'm not sure what it means, I'm not sure how it fits into this chaotic jigsaw, but it's something that's there that we can't ignore.
# People can have complex opinions with lots of internal contradictions # or things in tension with one another. FACT
That's true, but that's always true, isn't it? You're probably right that many people were in the middle, but they were a silent middle, moral dark matter, and they allowed a vocal extreme group to rule the roost. Also a lot of people were probably silent because they felt afraid and powerless, which would be me, for instance.
Perhaps you're right though, that the mutual accusation has gone on too long. I see people who don't seem to have fundamentally shifted their position on this thing, and I don't think they will, so there's no benefit to further recrimination. The SF&F community will either deal with it's problems, or it won't. If it doesn't, then outside forces (the press, law enforcement) will deal with it's problems for it.
Still, it is likely that all that can usefully be said, has now been said.
![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png)
branchandroot
Re: Let's be honest: many people were in the middle on RH
Date: 2014-10-22 12:53 pm (UTC)I also think that the SF&F community enabled and supported her for years. I saw hardly anyone presenting any effective opposition, and a great many singing her praises. I think it's true that few people knew the extent of it, I didn't, I didn't know she was attacking PoC as well as whites, and I'd have struggled to believe that, because it wouldn't make sense, but then nothing here makes sense.
However, if people had taken a stronger line of disapproval of abuse from the start, instead of cheering her and acting as supporters in her gang, think of all the people who would have been defended. By defending this person, even just in words, you defend all the other people, regardless who they are, by sending a
clear message of what you do and don't approve of. The SF&F community utterly failed to do this, and I think there need to be changes in attitude in the community or we'll have this, or something worse, happen again.
All that said, the apology that RH made two years ago to Ms Sperring, makes me think somewhat better of RH. For me it's one star in a universe of darkness, but it's still one star that's there. She absolutely didn't have to do it, yet she did it. That means something. I'm not sure what it means, I'm not sure how it fits into this chaotic jigsaw, but it's something that's there that we can't ignore.
# People can have complex opinions with lots of internal contradictions
# or things in tension with one another. FACT
That's true, but that's always true, isn't it? You're probably right that many people were in the middle, but they were a silent middle, moral dark matter, and they allowed a vocal extreme group to rule the roost. Also a lot of people were probably silent because they felt afraid and powerless, which would be me, for instance.
Perhaps you're right though, that the mutual accusation has gone on too long. I see people who don't seem to have fundamentally shifted their position on this thing, and I don't think they will, so there's no benefit to further recrimination. The SF&F community will either deal with it's problems, or it won't. If it doesn't, then outside forces (the press, law enforcement) will deal with it's problems for it.
Still, it is likely that all that can usefully be said, has now been said.
Colum